Curse

Tyla · Apr 09, 2008, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

I find Monks with spears not logical, the spear is no monk weapon and was never, so why should they be able to use it.
This is as terrible unlogical, like Warrioers runnign aroudn with "Magic Staffs"

Yeah, and "naga" are logical?
This isn't about logic, this is about killing builds that deserve to be nerfed because of degenerate play.

Besides, Spears are used on Monks for the same reason Swords and Axes are. They give +30hp, and +5E / -5E.

Phoenix Tears · Apr 09, 2008, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Yeah, and "naga" are logical?
This isn't about logic, this is about killing builds that deserve to be nerfed because of degenerate play.

Besides, Spears are used on Monks for the same reason Swords and Axes are. They give +30hp, and +5E / -5E.

Sure, we still play a fantasy game, but monsters and foes are a totally different thing, than what kind of weapons professions should be able to use ..

Quote:

Originally Posted by quickmonty

So, according to you, my necro can't use a longbow to pull mobs when I H/H? Totally stupid!

Also, about the monks with spears. I think you are being really myopic and thinking only of christian monks. Shaolin monks train with all types of weapons, including spears.

Please, stop with the stereotyping and open your mind.

For what the **** can you take ranger heroes into your party ? The only point in GW1 is only, that the Hero Control System is too much crap, as if it would allow us players to control our heroes so good, that we can give them detailed orders of what they should do.

Poorly we can't tell our heroes, which foes they should target to lure them...
Problem would be simply solve, when there would exist a way to tell our hero rangers exactly, which target they should attack to lure them carefully.

That system really needs improvement for GW2, when we run around later then with "Companions".

Maybe its one of the Weapons, Shaolins use, but not one of their most traditional. Tghe sterotype of the Shaolin still fights either only barehanded (gloves/claws/gauntlets) or with a bo-staff (long pole staff) or with Nunchakus (a.k.a. 3 Segment-Staff), these are the most traditional fight styles Shaolins are known for in their Kung Fu.

All I was about is the point, that Expertise needs not to get nerfed, when those problematic builds could be easily stopped, by simple giving all professions only a set amount of certain Weapons, they are able to use.

this would decrease the versatility yes, but also a bit more the logical aspect of this fantasy game and it would be balance wise the absolute most easiest solution to do this, because once done, there will be no need later, to try to balance on the problem further, because the decision will have no negative side effects, like you will eventually get the, when anet instead would try to doctor on the Expertise Attribute >.>

Pyro maniac · Apr 09, 2008, 06:03 PM // 18:03

@Phoenix Tears

lolwut?

valence · Apr 09, 2008, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Don't nerf 'cause I like it to walk around with big two handed weapons doing damage for 4 energy!

Nerf expertise 'cause scythe attacks arent meant to be 4 energy!

Also some lotr craptalk.

In case people start reading here, I summarized 14 pages. You're welcome.

jhu · Apr 09, 2008, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyro maniac

@Phoenix Tears

lolwut?

i second that. it's a FANTASY game. it's also rather unrealistic that given all this damage that characters are taking, there's no blood spilled. where's the blood?

Orange Milk · Apr 09, 2008, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Pheonix your english is very poor

And your ideas are even worse than your english.

Also can we ban the word "Degenerate" from this thread from now on?

That way tyla salanari has to stop posting cause thats all he can ever seem to say is that word and nothing else worth reading.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob
They are still effective in a shit player's hands and get him the reward of a title and emote.

So run the counter to it, now it's no longer effective, it dies and goes away, the shit player gets not title and no emote. Thats the whole issue here, instead of taking the time to counter it, people just hit their "easy button" and keep running hte same shit, then come here and complain that "Sway is all I see"

Tyla · Apr 09, 2008, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

Also can we ban the word "Degenerate" from this thread from now on?

That way tyla salanari has to stop posting cause thats all he can ever seem to say is that word and nothing else worth reading.

So run the counter to it, now it's no longer effective, it dies and goes away, the shit player gets not title and no emote. Thats the whole issue here, instead of taking the time to counter it, people just hit their "easy button" and keep running hte same shit, then come here and complain that "Sway is all I see"

Only because it's true. And last time I checked people already run things like anti-melee.
Saying "run a counter" is like saying we should all run AoM Dervs in GvG, HA or whatever just because there is blind...

Maybe I should just spam the word "degenerate" into multiple posts until you get the message that these builds are so easily ran. Degenerate play = degenerate the game.

Dru Stratas · Apr 09, 2008, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

Pheonix your english is very poor

And your ideas are even worse than your english.

I understood it perfectly

And Phoenix, Im not sure I like the idea of setting weapons for the classes that are "supposed to use them", I mean it wouldnt upset too much, other than the masses of monks that bought Voltiac Spears, or any other caster that splashed out on an expensive weapon

But, main subject now, I dont play loads of pvp because I enjoy pve more, so it wouldn't really bother me if expertise only affected ranger skills, but I can see how that would be damaging in pvp, so I feel it should be left alone.

Pyro maniac · Apr 09, 2008, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

So run the counter to it, now it's no longer effective, it dies and goes away, the shit player gets not title and no emote. Thats the whole issue here, instead of taking the time to counter it, people just hit their "easy button" and keep running hte same shit, then come here and complain that "Sway is all I see"

Gimping your build with numerous counters for every build won't win a single game.

HawkofStorms · Apr 09, 2008, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyro maniac

@Phoenix Tears

lolwut?

/agreed

Typical, random, 8 paragraph long post that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Kaida the Heartless · Apr 09, 2008, 09:25 PM // 21:25

The third vote option should be removed to get accurate results.

Clarissa F · Apr 09, 2008, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Crying from people who got owned by a Ranger?

As was said before, Soul Reaping is way more imbalanced than Expertise. I notice you don't cry about that, though. Where would the button-mashing SS builds be without it?

Compared to other classes, I think Expertise is very balanced. Soul Reaping and Energy Storage alone own it. So a ranger can carry a hammer or be an EDA blindbot: so what? Do you want to stop sins from wielding scythes? I don't hear too many tears falling about that.

Considering all the ranger secondary uses you mentioned are either easily countered or ridiculous(spirit spammer?), the only problem seems to be that someones aesthetic tastes are piqued. There are plenty of other class abuses that can be listed other than ranger. Hell, Let's nerf Soul Reaping to hell and let the necros see what it's like to be a mesmer.

Tyla · Apr 09, 2008, 09:41 PM // 21:41

I stopped reading your post after you mentioned that Energy Storage and Soul Reaping own Expertise.

And at the "Hell, Let's nerf Soul Reaping to hell and let the necros see what it's like to be a mesmer.", are you playing PvE by any chance? Because Mesmers are extremely strong.

~ Dan ~ · Apr 09, 2008, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

So run the counter to it, now it's no longer effective, it dies and goes away, the shit player gets not title and no emote. Thats the whole issue here, instead of taking the time to counter it, people just hit their "easy button" and keep running hte same shit, then come here and complain that "Sway is all I see"

If 98% of HA has to run a counter to a scrub build 2% are using, there's obviously something wrong with it.

Oh, and sadly those percentages are nowhere near accurate due to the inflation of PvE players in HA.

Dru Stratas · Apr 09, 2008, 10:55 PM // 22:55

As was said previous regarding Energy Storage; spells such as Rodgorts Invocation costing 25 energy, kinda drain a little. Even with attunements.

And with other builds; starter elementalists perhaps, the extra point in energy storage makes all the difference- sorry for being off topic

I see no reason for Necromancers, or Elementalists having their abilities changed.

Clarissa F · Apr 10, 2008, 01:00 AM // 01:00

First: at 12 ES, an ele gets 36 extra energy on their bar. Add runes and the average ele has over 80 E. Throw in attunements and they have no problem with energy. An average necro will start out with 45-50 energy. Soul Reaping at 12 gives 12 E per non-spirit death(and non-minion). Expertise at 12 halves cost of skills, making a 25 e skill cost 13 e. The average rangerr starts out with 33-35 e. The sin has the perpetual energy machine of Critical strikes. The imbagon has 6 e at 12 Leadership for every ally affected by a shout or chant. All, of course, can be countered by one good hexer/interrupter.

My point is NOT to nerf SR! My point is that if you are going to kill Expertise, there are other professions whose primary attribute is just as good for giving energy, whether in one pop or as a high level to start out. There is no reason for any of them to be nerfed. If you can't handle the energy, you are playing crap. If you are running Rodgort's Invocation without Dual attunement, you are mistaken, so don't use that fallacy to argue eles energy sucks.

As to mesmer, I play both sides, so I do see the awesomeness in PvP, as well as how good they can be in PvE. I'm just saying that if you take down SR, you would be close to a mesmer without Fast Casting, not that a mesmer is that bad.

yum · Apr 10, 2008, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Oh dear, from expertise, ppl are on SR, FS and ES now

What's next? China?

Master Ketsu · Apr 10, 2008, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

So? That means these people can roll over all the other average players despite being crap themselves?

The point here, is that it doesn't matter if these scrub builds can be beaten by good players. They are still effective in a shit player's hands and get him the reward of a title and emote.

That is wrong.

Competitive ( PVP ) Balance should always be based off of how the skills are run by top players. It is only when players are in top tier condition and are making few mistakes when true game balance issues start to surface - since at that point it is no longer a problem with the player, but with the game.

Nerfing scrub builds because other scrub builds get milled by it solves nothing, and only makes the matter worse for those up top since then they would have to deal with a nerf that was done with lower standards in mind.

~ Dan ~ · Apr 10, 2008, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Nerfing scrub builds because other scrub builds get milled by it solves nothing, and only makes the matter worse for those up top since then they would have to deal with a nerf that was done with lower standards in mind.

My issue is why should bad players who want to be bad (i.e. by always running the same dumb builds) be rewarded at all?

FlamingMetroid · Apr 10, 2008, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Expertise is fine, give it more versatility imo